EVE Search - New drones, modules and what not


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Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.01 07:47:00 - [1] Originally by: Farjung Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle is 1.5/10 = 15%. Doesn't look like much. Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (8.5/10)^4 = 47.8% Chance of one t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 6/10 = 60% If an interceptor had a lock time of 20s, this might be a good way to do it, but jamming a cetpor for 5 out of 20seconds doesn't really get you a lot. The part about BSs though might be a decent analysis, at least for BS with crappy lock times and no sensor boosters. BSs with sensor boosters though, you again fall into the issue that jamming for 5s of 20s doesn't get you a lot if the lock time is only a few seconds. So this'll make jamming drones really good against ships with crappy lock times, but not so good against things with decent lock times.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.01 07:47:00 - [2] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 01/11/2005 07:50:10 Originally by: Farjung Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle is 1.5/10 = 15%. Doesn't look like much. Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (8.5/10)^4 = 47.8% Chance of one t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 6/10 = 60% If an interceptor had a lock time of 20s, this might be a good way to do it, but jamming a cetpor for 5 out of 20seconds doesn't really get you a lot. The part about BSs though might be a decent analysis, at least for BS with crappy lock times and no sensor boosters. BSs with sensor boosters though, you again fall into the issue that jamming for 5s of 20s doesn't get you a lot if the lock time is only a few seconds. So this'll make jamming drones really good against ships with crappy lock times, but not so good against things with decent lock times. TUX - The Thermal only thing for Gallenete really really sux!!! Some Gallenete have trained things like Minmatar Specialization level 4+ to get Berserker II's, and bought a crapload of Berserker II's to use in this role. At least give us a years use before you make the investment a waste of ISK, so we can see some return from our invested time and ISK, thanks.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.01 11:18:00 - [3] Originally by: Tuxford We've been discussing this around the office yesterday. Personally I can see both sides of the arguement but there are certain differences that are convincing me that it should be a all around damage bonus the most crucial being that people on gallente drone ships didn't necessarily train up to use Gallente drones. The other being if drone ships being mostly Gallente will only use Gallente drones who's going to use the others. I'm a bit surprised that I haven't seen more complaints from manufacturer tbh. Thanks for reply Tux . Now just do something about Dominix having to sacrifice more than everyone else in order to use the new (non-damage) drones, and not getting any bonus for it, and I'll be happy about the new changes. Thanks, K
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.01 11:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Tuxford We've been discussing this around the office yesterday. Personally I can see both sides of the arguement but there are certain differences that are convincing me that it should be a all around damage bonus the most crucial being that people on gallente drone ships didn't necessarily train up to use Gallente drones. The other being if drone ships being mostly Gallente will only use Gallente drones who's going to use the others. I'm a bit surprised that I haven't seen more complaints from manufacturer tbh. Thanks for reply Tux . Now just do something about Dominix having to sacrifice more than everyone else in order to use the new (non-damage) drones, and not getting any bonus for it, and I'll be happy about the new changes. Thanks, K
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 01:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Squid Lord Originally by: Spaja Saist Putting flowers on a pile of ** isn't going to change the smell. Agreed. They do not care. Period End of Story. Dominixs are now totally worthless. Thanks for NOTHING CCP!. My money and alot of other peoples money they will miss. Now, now, no need to get snippy. Tux is an intelligent man, and i'm sure after seeing the issues pointed out he'll work on a way to resolve them. He clearly did not mean to nerf the Dominix and other drone carriers with this change... it was an oversight I'm sure he'll correct before implementation. Just like the Thermal only damage thing, it was pointed out, he saw that it wasn't good, and he fixed it. Now he just needs to fix the issues with all other drones.. mining, ECM, Web, etc, etc... because there isn't just damage drones in the game. In case you missed it TUX**, here is (yet another) explanation of the issues... 1) Boosting HPs across the board will help non-drone carriers more than it will help drone carrier ships, and yet drone carriers are the ones that need it more, as they rely on drones for survival. (feel free to ask if you dont understand how this is the case) 2) Doubling of HPs for non-drone carriers and Trippling of HPs for drone carriers will not make them as survivable as they are currently, because half of their survivability is in that you have to lock each one individually, which takes a long time. Perhaps if you make them take 3 times as long to be locked in addition to trippling their HPs, this would make them as survivable. 3) These new non-damage drones will not be a viable alternative for drone carrier ships, as it'll take a larger portion of their damage drones effectiveness than it will for non-drone carrier ships, relagating these new drones to be used by only non-drone carriers, rather the opposite of what you'd expect. Clearly an indicator that something is wrong. If drone carriers are currently balanced, and not in need of a nerf, then why make them have to give up 3 drones to use a new feature, when everyone else only has to give up (at most) 2 drones to use the same features. Actually, less than 2, since many/most non-drone users dont have drone interfacing, so they are only giving up 1 combat drone of damage to use the new drones, but drone-carriers have to give up 3?! 4) Drone Carriers currently used for mining operations have been just outright ruined without a second thought. 5 Mining Drone II's that do 3 times as much damage as they used to (they do zero damage for those that don't know) are not as effective as 15 Mining Drone II's, CLEARLY. In fact, they are 1/3 as effective, which is clearly a HUGE nerf of their drone mining capability (66% reduction for those that suck at math). Thanks again for your time Tux, and please let us know that you realize that these issues exist, even if you dont have a solution to them yet... Kaell
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 01:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Squid Lord Originally by: Spaja Saist Putting flowers on a pile of ** isn't going to change the smell. Agreed. They do not care. Period End of Story. Dominixs are now totally worthless. Thanks for NOTHING CCP!. My money and alot of other peoples money they will miss. Now, now, no need to get snippy. Tux is an intelligent man, and i'm sure after seeing the issues pointed out he'll work on a way to resolve them. He clearly did not mean to nerf the Dominix and other drone carriers with this change... it was an oversight I'm sure he'll correct before implementation. Just like the Thermal only damage thing, it was pointed out, he saw that it wasn't good, and he fixed it. Now he just needs to fix the issues with all other drones.. mining, ECM, Web, etc, etc... because there isn't just damage drones in the game. In case you missed it TUX**, here is (yet another) explanation of the issues... 1) Boosting HPs across the board will help non-drone carriers more than it will help drone carrier ships, and yet drone carriers are the ones that need it more, as they rely on drones for survival. (feel free to ask if you dont understand how this is the case) 2) Doubling of HPs for non-drone carriers and Trippling of HPs for drone carriers will not make them as survivable as they are currently, because half of their survivability is in that you have to lock each one individually, which takes a long time. Perhaps if you make them take 3 times as long to be locked in addition to trippling their HPs, this would make them as survivable. 3) These new non-damage drones will not be a viable alternative for drone carrier ships, as it'll take a larger portion of their damage drones effectiveness than it will for non-drone carrier ships, relagating these new drones to be used by only non-drone carriers, rather the opposite of what you'd expect. Clearly an indicator that something is wrong. If drone carriers are currently balanced, and not in need of a nerf, then why make them have to give up 3 drones to use a new feature, when everyone else only has to give up (at most) 2 drones to use the same features. Actually, less than 2, since many/most non-drone users dont have drone interfacing, so they are only giving up 1 combat drone of damage to use the new drones, but drone-carriers have to give up 3?! 4) Drone Carriers currently used for mining operations have been just outright ruined without a second thought. 5 Mining Drone II's that do 3 times as much damage as they used to (they do zero damage for those that don't know) are not as effective as 15 Mining Drone II's, CLEARLY. In fact, they are 1/3 as effective, which is clearly a HUGE nerf of their drone mining capability (66% reduction for those that suck at math). Thanks again for your time Tux, and please let us know that you realize that these issues exist, even if you dont have a solution to them yet... Kaell
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:16:00 - [7] Example of point 3... Say you field 2 EW drones and 3 Damage drones. A non-drone carrier ship who maxed their drone skills (not typical) has given up 4 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones. A non-drone carrier ship with drone interfacing 2 (more typical) has given up 2.8 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). A non-drone carrier ship without drone interfacing (while not typical to have drones 5, we'll assume it for this example) has given up 2 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). A drone carrier ship with 'typical' drone skills (Drones-5, DroneInterfacing-4, BS-4) has given up 5.04 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). A drone carrier ship with maxed drone skills (semi-typical of specialized drone carrier flyers) has given up 6 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). I don't know how better to clearly demonstrate the issue. I hope this is clear enough. Kaell
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:16:00 - [8] Example of point 3... Say you field 2 EW drones and 3 Damage drones. A non-drone carrier ship who maxed their drone skills (not typical) has given up 4 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones. A non-drone carrier ship with drone interfacing 2 (more typical) has given up 2.8 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). A non-drone carrier ship without drone interfacing (while not typical to have drones 5, we'll assume it for this example) has given up 2 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). A drone carrier ship with 'typical' drone skills (Drones-5, DroneInterfacing-4, BS-4) has given up 5.04 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). A drone carrier ship with maxed drone skills (semi-typical of specialized drone carrier flyers) has given up 6 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get these 2 new EW drones (the same drones as in case 1). I don't know how better to clearly demonstrate the issue. I hope this is clear enough. Kaell
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:23:00 - [9] Originally by: j0sephine Auto-lock back in the client settings allows you to simultaneously lock on up to 7-9 drones or so, depending on the ship and skills. Then while killing these drones you simply switch to 'drones only' overview mode, and as soon as one of the locked drones is dead you ctrl-click another drone in overview that isn't indicated as already locked, and proceed to kill the already-locked drone(s) meantime. This means that aside from initial lock time, there's practically no pause at all while one is killing the drones. As such, there's no reason to increase lock time on drones from what it is currently, because the survability being in part due to having to lock on each and single one of them... is a fallacy. While you have a point, your conclusion is also a fallacy, in that you are assuming that all ships can lock 15 targets plus whatever actual targets they want to lock, or that the pilot is perfect at managing when a new target needs to be locked and when a target is going to be destroyed. While I'll grant that 3 times targeting time wouldn't be necessary to make it effectively the same as it is now, clearly a longer lock time would be needed, unless you assume that all eve pilots are 100% perfect at mangaging targets at all times, and never run into issues of too many targets locked, resulting in lost time shooting at drones while waiting for a lock. Feel free to test this on Sisi, in a combat situation (typically not 1v1) where you don't know exactly what you'll be facing from the start (not staged combat), and you decide to take out the drones with guns, I think you'll find you occasionally end up waiting for a lock, especially if the drone carrier is at close range and pulls the drones in when they start popping (a common drone carrier tactic when drones start to pop used to waste the attackers time picking new targets or wasting gun cycles on the BS itself to keep the drones alive longer), thus making you have to re-lock them when they are released again.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:27:00 - [10] Originally by: j0sephine you can easily see who is losing bigger part of their total firepower here, to make use of the new features... Yes, the drone carrier, as the damage from drones from a non-drone carrier was never their primary source of damage. Your example is in percent of drone damage, not in percent of total damage from ship, thus not relavent. Unless you are suggesting that a typical Dominix without drones does as much damage as an Armageddon without drones (which is clearly wrong).

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:27:00 - [11] Originally by: j0sephine you can easily see who is losing bigger part of their total firepower here, to make use of the new features... Yes, the drone carrier, as the damage from drones from a non-drone carrier was never their primary source of damage. Your example is in percent of drone damage, not in percent of total damage from ship, thus not relavent. Unless you are suggesting that a typical Dominix without drones does as much damage as an Armageddon without drones (which is clearly wrong).
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:33:00 - [12] Originally by: j0sephine A regular non-drone carrier will only be able to field 3 drones total. Meaning they limit the number of their combat drones to 1 (or 2 old drones with maxed skills) and their drone firepower is reduced by 66% The max-skills drone carrier which gives up on the same 2 drones retain the firepower of 9 'old' drones -- it gives up 40% of their drone firepower. Dunno, the drone carrier does seem better off with the whole deal... A 'regular' non-drone carrier? I'm not sure what that is. Some can field 3, some can field 5, both are regular as far as I know. Still the 'regular' non-drone carrier one only gives up 1 to 2 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get the EW drone, ans still the drone carrier gives up 5 to 6 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of drone damage to get the same EW drone. Again, percent of damage from drones is MEANINGLESS (sorry to shout). Unless you are still asserting that a typical Dominix without drones does the same amount of damage as an Armageddon without drones, which is STILL clearly wrong. (again, sorry for the shout, but you just can't reasonably assume that Armageddons and Dominix's do the same total damage without drones).
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:33:00 - [13] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/11/2005 02:51:52 Originally by: j0sephine A regular non-drone carrier will only be able to field 3 drones total. Meaning they limit the number of their combat drones to 1 (or 2 old drones with maxed skills) and their drone firepower is reduced by 66% The max-skills drone carrier which gives up on the same 2 drones retain the firepower of 9 'old' drones -- it gives up 40% of their drone firepower. Dunno, the drone carrier does seem better off with the whole deal... A 'regular' non-drone carrier? I'm not sure what that is. Some can field 3, some can field 5, both are regular as far as I know. Still the 'regular' non-drone carrier one only gives up 2 to 4 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of damage to get the EW drone, ans still the drone carrier gives up 5 to 6 <effective pre-patch damage drones> of drone damage to get the same EW drone. Again, percent of damage from drones is MEANINGLESS (sorry to shout). Unless you are still asserting that a typical Dominix without drones does the same amount of damage as an Armageddon without drones, which is STILL clearly wrong. (again, sorry for the shout, but you just can't reasonably assume that Armageddons and Dominix's do the same total damage without drones). EDIT: fixed a 1 to a 2, and a 2 to a 4 for the 'regular' non-drone carrier (oops)
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:41:00 - [14] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/11/2005 02:43:15 Sure, it's probably unfair to artifically penalize those that can manage targeting drones currently, as it is unfair to artificially penalize drone carriers by assuming everyone can 100% of the time, and that no drone carriers know how to pull in drones at tactical times to make people have to re-lock them, especially good vs targets using guns with long cycletimes. The 3 times locking time I proposed I agree is also unreasonable, but 1 times locking time is as well. Re: the 40% vs 66% thing... If you want to use this percentage you keep using, you need to estimate what percent of total damage comes from drones and what comes from guns on each ship. Lets make up some numbers and show why your percent system is wrong. Say Dominix drone damage is 80% of its total damage (again, made up number), and say an Armageddon drone damage is 20% of its total damage (made up again). Now, if a Dominix gives up 40% of it's drone damage, it has given up 40%80%=32%* of the ships total damage. If an Amageddon gives up 66% of it's drone damage, it has give up 66%20%=13.2%* of it's total damage. So yes, 66% is a bigger number than 40%, but it's less total damage (EDIT: which equates to less total combat effectiveness) that it has given up in the exchange.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 02:41:00 - [15] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/11/2005 02:43:15 Sure, it's probably unfair to artifically penalize those that can manage targeting drones currently, as it is unfair to artificially penalize drone carriers by assuming everyone can 100% of the time, and that no drone carriers know how to pull in drones at tactical times to make people have to re-lock them, especially good vs targets using guns with long cycletimes. The 3 times locking time I proposed I agree is also unreasonable, but 1 times locking time is as well. Re: the 40% vs 66% thing... If you want to use this percentage you keep using, you need to estimate what percent of total damage comes from drones and what comes from guns on each ship. Lets make up some numbers and show why your percent system is wrong. Say Dominix drone damage is 80% of its total damage (again, made up number), and say an Armageddon drone damage is 20% of its total damage (made up again). Now, if a Dominix gives up 40% of it's drone damage, it has given up 40%80%=32%* of the ships total damage. If an Amageddon gives up 66% of it's drone damage, it has give up 66%20%=13.2%* of it's total damage. So yes, 66% is a bigger number than 40%, but it's less total damage (EDIT: which equates to less total combat effectiveness) that it has given up in the exchange.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 03:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Maya Rkell And? And?? And I was trying to show how these changes adversely affected a Dominix, and I believe I demonstrated that. If a nerf of the Dominix was not intended, then these issues should be resolved to prevent it from an unintentional nerf as a side effect of the changes. I thought that point was clearly implied in my post, regardless, I hope I've clarified it for you now.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 03:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Maya Rkell And? And?? And I was trying to show how these changes adversely affected a Dominix, and I believe I demonstrated that. If a nerf of the Dominix was not intended, then these issues should be resolved to prevent it from an unintentional nerf as a side effect of the changes. I thought that point was clearly implied in my post, regardless, I hope I've clarified it for you now.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 03:29:00 - [18] Thanks for running more real numbers, I hate looking up data ><. Anyway... Quote: simplest and by no means worst solution seems to be leave it as it's planned to be I'd say the simplest and by no means worst solution seems to be leave it as it currently is. I'm not willing to accept that the brilliant minds at CCP are simply unable to come up with a more reasonable fix for this issue. I'd try to come up with one myself, but I don't know their code and don't know what would be easy/hard to do. I came up with the start of some ideas, but fear they'd be rejected for reasons that the code would require a lot of change to implement, and I don't want to spend hours thinking up solutions when I don't know the variables. I'm hoping Tux will.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 03:29:00 - [19] Thanks for running more real numbers, I hate looking up data ><. Anyway... Quote: simplest and by no means worst solution seems to be leave it as it's planned to be I'd say the simplest and by no means worst solution seems to be leave it as it currently is. I'm not willing to accept that the brilliant minds at CCP are simply unable to come up with a more reasonable fix for this issue. I'd try to come up with one myself, but I don't know their code and don't know what would be easy/hard to do. I came up with the start of some ideas, but fear they'd be rejected for reasons that the code would require a lot of change to implement, and I don't want to spend hours thinking up solutions when I don't know the variables. I'm hoping Tux will.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 04:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Esrevatem Dlareme how do you tell which drone is Repair Drone 4 when they're orbiting in a weird wobbly formation? Bigger question is, why do you care, it's only 1 drone worth of damage. Quote: I don't see a single heavy combat drone being trouble for a battleship, after the changes, but for smaller ships, it could be worrysome... 5 I would think are more worrysome than 1. You'll also have to individually tell each one to repair, and not do it in a group, so you get staggered healing. It might be good against NPCs, but I think a PC will just ignore the drone when it is doing so little to it. Nice thought though, just don't think it's practical.

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 04:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Esrevatem Dlareme how do you tell which drone is Repair Drone 4 when they're orbiting in a weird wobbly formation? Bigger question is, why do you care, it's only 1 drone worth of damage. Quote: I don't see a single heavy combat drone being trouble for a battleship, after the changes, but for smaller ships, it could be worrysome... 5 I would think are more worrysome than 1. You'll also have to individually tell each one to repair, and not do it in a group, so you get staggered healing. It might be good against NPCs, but I think a PC will just ignore the drone when it is doing so little to it. Nice thought though, just don't think it's practical.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: jamesw How is it a nerf to the drone carriers when they: a) get more waves of drones. b) get more flexible and more damaging drone options. + thx It has been explained about 30 times throught this thread, please go read. Here is one Link explaining it, there are many many more. And seriously Nafri, please stop with the 40 line quote and 1 line response.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:49:00 - [23] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: jamesw How is it a nerf to the drone carriers when they: a) get more waves of drones. b) get more flexible and more damaging drone options. + thx It has been explained about 30 times throught this thread, please go read. Here is one Link explaining it, there are many many more. And seriously Nafri, please stop with the 40 line quote and 1 line response.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 21:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux So the drone carriers will have their +1 drone controlled per level changed to: -> +10% drone damage per level -> +10% drone mining yield per level -> +10% to drone hitpoints ? that's one hell of a ship bonus. And yet far far less than what it gets now.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 21:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux So the drone carriers will have their +1 drone controlled per level changed to: -> +10% drone damage per level -> +10% drone mining yield per level -> +10% to drone hitpoints ? that's one hell of a ship bonus. And yet far far less than what it gets now.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 21:24:00 - [26] STILL NOT ADDRESSED: LOCKTIMES: Locking 15 drones is much harder than locking 5. DRONE HITPOINTS: 7.5 drones woth of HPs is less than 10, compounded by the fact you dont lose damage to overdamage (a gun cycle that does way more than is needed to finish off the drone you are targeting). Dominix with 5 drones has 11.25 times the HPs (with MAX skills) as 5 do now.... how is that not way less than 15? With less loss to overdamage, and less locktimes (see above), drones are just going to get decimated. It needs to be about 5 drones = 25 drones HPs, not 11.25. OTHER DRONES: Still not addressed is the issue that a Dominix flying anything other than damage drones is just silly, since it gives up way more than others do, for the same drones. A Megathron with 5 heavy EW drones is just as good with them as a Dominix with 5 heavy EW drones, something is CLEARLY WRONG. Yes Dominix has bigger hold and can keep the EW drones in its dronebay, but WHAT GOOD DOES A DRONE DO SITTING IN A DRONEBAY? It's only good if you field it, and if you do, you've given up the one advantage a Dominix really has to balance it. Reducing server and client lag is nice and all, but you're ignoring clear changes in game balance to acheive them. It's like if you lasers cause more lag cause it has to draw more, so you remove lasers from the game, making Amarr suck, that too would be wrong.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 21:24:00 - [27] STILL NOT ADDRESSED: LOCKTIMES: Locking 15 drones is much harder than locking 5. DRONE HITPOINTS: 7.5 drones woth of HPs is less than 10, compounded by the fact you dont lose damage to overdamage (a gun cycle that does way more than is needed to finish off the drone you are targeting). Dominix with 5 drones has 11.25 times the HPs (with MAX skills) as 5 do now.... how is that not way less than 15? With less loss to overdamage, and less locktimes (see above), drones are just going to get decimated. It needs to be about 5 drones = 25 drones HPs, not 11.25. OTHER DRONES: Still not addressed is the issue that a Dominix flying anything other than damage drones is just silly, since it gives up way more than others do, for the same drones. A Megathron with 5 heavy EW drones is just as good with them as a Dominix with 5 heavy EW drones, something is CLEARLY WRONG. Yes Dominix has bigger hold and can keep the EW drones in its dronebay, but WHAT GOOD DOES A DRONE DO SITTING IN A DRONEBAY? It's only good if you field it, and if you do, you've given up the one advantage a Dominix really has to balance it. Reducing server and client lag is nice and all, but you're ignoring clear changes in game balance to acheive them. It's like if you lasers cause more lag cause it has to draw more, so you remove lasers from the game, making Amarr suck, that too would be wrong.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:02:00 - [28] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/11/2005 22:08:53 Originally by: j0sephine A tad tiny bit unreasonable, isn't it? Not really, no. The fielded drones should have as much if not more HPs than they do now, since it is far easier to lock them. Drones in bay only help vs NPCs, in PvP (in my experience) you rarely have time for a new set of drones to travel the distance to your target a second, third or fourth time before the battle is over. Drones in bay (and thus HPs of drones in bay) are not as good as drones in space (and thus HPs of drones in space). 33.75 drones of HPs (where 2/3rd of that is in your bay) is not as good as 30 drones of HPs (where 1/2 of that is in your bay), especially when the 30 drones of HPs require far more locktime, and get a bonus from overdamage. It effectively reduces (by a non-inconsequential amount) the total effective DPS of the drones, since there will be a lot more traveltime. Unless you speed up the drones by a decent amount to make fielding of replacement drones more viable in PvP encounters. EDIT: Originally by: j0sephine (note, with their current stats if 5 new drones = 11.25 old ones, that'll be still 8 cruisers worth of AI-driven hp that can go boom before you are even scratched ... while currently all your 30 drones together are worth as much hp as ~7 cruisers) Umm, I dunno how you got this, but it's wrong. 5 new drones are not going to have more HPs than 30 old ones, they will have LESS than 15 old ones. Don't feel like searching for your error tho :P.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:02:00 - [29] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/11/2005 22:10:48 Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/11/2005 22:08:53 Originally by: j0sephine A tad tiny bit unreasonable, isn't it? Not really, no. The fielded drones should have as much if not more HPs than they do now, since it is far easier to lock them. Drones in bay only help vs NPCs, in PvP (in my experience) you rarely have time for a new set of drones to travel the distance to your target a second, third or fourth time before the battle is over. Drones in bay (and thus HPs of drones in bay) are not as good as drones in space (and thus HPs of drones in space). 33.75 drones of HPs (where 2/3rd of that is in your bay) is not as good as 30 drones of HPs (where 1/2 of that is in your bay), especially when the 30 drones of HPs require far more locktime, and get a bonus from overdamage. It effectively reduces (by a non-inconsequential amount) the total effective DPS of the drones, since there will be a lot more traveltime. Unless you speed up the drones by a decent amount to make fielding of replacement drones more viable in PvP encounters. EDIT: Originally by: j0sephine (note, with their current stats if 5 new drones = 11.25 old ones, that'll be still 8 cruisers worth of AI-driven hp that can go boom before you are even scratched ... while currently all your 30 drones together are worth as much hp as ~7 cruisers) Umm, I dunno how you got this, but it's wrong. 5 new drones are not going to have more HPs than 30 old ones, they will have LESS than 15 old ones. Don't feel like searching for your error tho :P. If 5 new = 11.25 old, how is 5 new > 30 old? That's clearly wrong.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:04:00 - [30] Originally by: GC13 Well, it seems to me like Tuxford is very well aware of the plight of battleships who use drones to mine, and is taking this opportunity to stick it to them and tell them to either stop mining or buy a mining barge. You mean an Apoc, right?

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:04:00 - [31] Originally by: GC13 Well, it seems to me like Tuxford is very well aware of the plight of battleships who use drones to mine, and is taking this opportunity to stick it to them and tell them to either stop mining or buy a mining barge. You mean an Apoc, right?
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:13:00 - [32] Originally by: j0sephine Hmm.. what distances are you fighting with these drones at? ^^;; Around 30km. Dominix is too slow to dictate engagement range, at least on defencive ops.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:13:00 - [33] Originally by: j0sephine Hmm.. what distances are you fighting with these drones at? ^^;; Around 30km. Dominix is too slow to dictate engagement range, at least on defencive ops.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:18:00 - [34] Originally by: Farjung fifteen drones that will fit in the domi's bay post-patch will have more hp than the thirty drones that fit in it right now. ie, if the enemy's intent on popping all your drones before setting to work on you, it'll have more hp to chew through. VERY slightly more, and combined with the FAR less lock times, this results in overall less survivability. This coupled with less total damage over time, as you have 50% more travel time with the drones. Quote: As for the task of pushing out new drones as previous ones get destroyed - well that just comes down to how good you are at micro-management in the heat of battle, and tbh it's not that hard to get a hang of if you're concentrating on it. You don't have to wait for all the drones of the previous wave to be popped before sending new ones out, just keep launching a new one as soon as one gets destroyed. It's not about telling them to launch and attack, it's about travel times. 50% more travel time is 50% more travel time, regardless of how good you are with the interface. Additionally, this is assuming you live long enough to go through all your drones and wait for wave upon wave to travel to the target.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:18:00 - [35] Originally by: Farjung fifteen drones that will fit in the domi's bay post-patch will have more hp than the thirty drones that fit in it right now. ie, if the enemy's intent on popping all your drones before setting to work on you, it'll have more hp to chew through. VERY slightly more, and combined with the FAR less lock times, this results in overall less survivability. This coupled with less total damage over time, as you have 50% more travel time with the drones. Quote: As for the task of pushing out new drones as previous ones get destroyed - well that just comes down to how good you are at micro-management in the heat of battle, and tbh it's not that hard to get a hang of if you're concentrating on it. You don't have to wait for all the drones of the previous wave to be popped before sending new ones out, just keep launching a new one as soon as one gets destroyed. It's not about telling them to launch and attack, it's about travel times. 50% more travel time is 50% more travel time, regardless of how good you are with the interface. Additionally, this is assuming you live long enough to go through all your drones and wait for wave upon wave to travel to the target.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:55:00 - [36] Originally by: Maya Rkell Drone ships will be MORE effective with the new modules. Explain how a Dominix with the new modules is MORE effective than a Megathron with the new modules? Or are you saying you think only the Dominix can fit the new modules? Dominix will be less effective with the new drones and the new modules in comparison to their efficacy now, as they will be about the same effectiveness as non-drone ships.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Maya Rkell Drone ships will be MORE effective with the new modules. Explain how a Dominix with the new modules is MORE effective than a Megathron with the new modules? Or are you saying you think only the Dominix can fit the new modules? Dominix will be less effective with the new drones and the new modules in comparison to their efficacy now, as they will be about the same effectiveness as non-drone ships.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: Maya Rkell Drone ships will be MORE effective with the new modules. Explain how a Dominix with the new modules is MORE effective than a Megathron with the new modules? Or are you saying you think only the Dominix can fit the new modules? Dominix will be less effective with the new drones and the new modules in comparison to their efficacy now, as they will be about the same effectiveness as non-drone ships. Go and actually read CCP's latest dev blog then come back. kthx. I did, kthx. If you can't argue facts, don't spout random false statements please. Nowhere in either devblog has it said that a Dominix is better with ECM drones than a Megathron (same with all the other new drones, except maybe sentry drones, which is unclear as to wether or not the Dominix bonus will apply to them), thats the entire point I've been making for about 8 pages now. I'm not sure if people have just missed all my posts, or just can't understand english.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:07:00 - [39] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 00:14:48 Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 00:12:42 I've read it many times. Myabe you were unclear in what you meant. You could have meant either Dominix is more effective with the new modules than the Dominix was pre-patch, or you could have meant the Dominix is more effective with the new modules than a non-Dominix with the new modules. I assumed the second, as that's what we've been discussing, and that one is false. If you meant the former, what import does that have when 90% of other ships also get the same bonus? That doesn't address the issue that the others get more of a bonus from the changes than the drone carrier does.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:24:00 - [40] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 00:25:54 Originally by: Derran A Megathron is a tier II battleship and the Dominix is tier I so I hope no one expects them to be the same. Unless you want to put Megathron sales into the toilet. I expect the Dominix to be much better at using drones than the Megathron, but be less powerfull overall, just as the Scorpion is much better at EW than the Raven. Quote: For Kaell, just to throw this out there, if EWar drones weren't even on the table, do you think the Dominix would be just be as effective or moreso after the change as it is now? If all of the new drones were scrapped, I'd think it would be about a wash as to wether it was better or worse off. I don't like that the drones will be easier to kill because they are easier to lock and the fielded drones have about 70% of the HPs as the fielded drones do now, but this is slightly mitigated by their reduced vulnerability to smartbombs, and thier ability to field a third wave of drones in drawn out combats (not common of PvP). With the new drone modules (which we have no specs on), and the new skills (also no specs on them), I think this might make a Dominix a little better off than it was before the changes, it's a pretty close wash overall given Locktimes, FieldableHPs, ReserveHPs, Overdamage, and NewSkills. IF and ONLY IF the new drones aren't implemented. If they are, then the changes help non-Dominix more than they do Dominix. Don't get me wrong, I think the new drones are cool and add some flavor to the game, but currently it's at the expense of the Dominix... the Dominix just needs to have a +10%/level drone efficiency bonus, as it effectively does now, rather than a Damage and Mining and slight HP only bonus (and I think they are saying the Dominix doesn't get the mining bonus, just without stating it explicitly because they know people will rightfully complain).

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:24:00 - [41] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 00:25:54 Originally by: Derran A Megathron is a tier II battleship and the Dominix is tier I so I hope no one expects them to be the same. Unless you want to put Megathron sales into the toilet. I expect the Dominix to be much better at using drones than the Megathron, but be less powerfull overall, just as the Scorpion is much better at EW than the Raven. Quote: For Kaell, just to throw this out there, if EWar drones weren't even on the table, do you think the Dominix would be just be as effective or moreso after the change as it is now? If all of the new drones were scrapped, I'd think it would be about a wash as to wether it was better or worse off. I don't like that the drones will be easier to kill because they are easier to lock and the fielded drones have about 70% of the HPs as the fielded drones do now, but this is slightly mitigated by their reduced vulnerability to smartbombs, and thier ability to field a third wave of drones in drawn out combats (not common of PvP). With the new drone modules (which we have no specs on), and the new skills (also no specs on them), I think this might make a Dominix a little better off than it was before the changes, it's a pretty close wash overall given Locktimes, FieldableHPs, ReserveHPs, Overdamage, and NewSkills. IF and ONLY IF the new drones aren't implemented. If they are, then the changes help non-Dominix more than they do Dominix. Don't get me wrong, I think the new drones are cool and add some flavor to the game, but currently it's at the expense of the Dominix... the Dominix just needs to have a +10%/level drone efficiency bonus, as it effectively does now, rather than a Damage and Mining and slight HP only bonus (and I think they are saying the Dominix doesn't get the mining bonus, just without stating it explicitly because they know people will rightfully complain).
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:57:00 - [42] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 00:58:50 Originally by: Derran Don't forget they are got a HP increase in the works that will do exactly that. Make combat last longer. Sure, SOON(tm). Relying on future changes that might or might not ever make it into the game to balance out current changes isn't a good idea. They're also going to do a new contracts system, but we dont remove the escrow system right now do we? EDIT: BTW, increase across the board of ships HPs making combat take longer will also hurt the Dominix EVEN MORE. Since you'll have more time to spend destroying their source of damage. The backup drones only mitigates how badly this will HURT the Dominix, it doesn't actually help it at all, and isn't very usefull at all in current rates of combat. Quote: What exactly is making you say they are easier to lock and kill? I thought I read somewhere that the sig radius is getting a tweak that should make it take longer to lock. Right now, with my sig analysis skill at 4, it took me 12s to lock a wasp. 12s is a long time. I would think it would be time enough for one of those drones to reach me and get so close my large guns probably wouldn't be able to hit it. I only say this because I never bothered actually shooting at drones while in combat before. I would just kill the ship controlling them unless I had a large smartbomb on. 1) Where did you read that drones were getting smaller sig? I didn't see that in either blog. Also, it needs to be a bonus FOR THE DOMINIX, not for all drones. It is the Dominix that is getting less fielded drones and thus hurt by the lower lock times. 2) The lower lock times are because it takes less time to target 5 drones than it does to target 15 drones. 3) That's exactly my point. No one tried to attack drones before because there were so many and it was a pain to try in combat with 15 different targets. With 5, everyone will be killing drones, thus showing exactly my point on that issue. Again, I think it's overall balanced, if the new classes of drones weren't put in, or if the Dominix's current +50% efficiency at drone usage wasnt changed to a +50% damage only with drones, relegating it to be only a drone damage carrier, and not a drone carrier that gets no use of the new drones.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:57:00 - [43] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 01:00:57 Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 00:58:50 Originally by: Derran Don't forget they are got a HP increase in the works that will do exactly that. Make combat last longer. Sure, SOON(tm). Relying on future changes that might or might not ever make it into the game to balance out current changes isn't a good idea. They're also going to do a new contracts system, but we dont remove the escrow system right now do we? EDIT: BTW, increase across the board of ships HPs making combat take longer will also hurt the Dominix EVEN MORE. Since you'll have more time to spend destroying their source of damage. The backup drones only mitigates how badly this will HURT the Dominix, it doesn't actually help it at all, and isn't very usefull at all in current rates of combat. EDIT2: Although the longer combat will reduce the penalty the Domi recieves from drone travel time due to the increased frailty of the drones, if the combat is made long enough, it'll make them run out of drones though... unless during the HP boost, drones also get a HP boost. Quote: What exactly is making you say they are easier to lock and kill? I thought I read somewhere that the sig radius is getting a tweak that should make it take longer to lock. Right now, with my sig analysis skill at 4, it took me 12s to lock a wasp. 12s is a long time. I would think it would be time enough for one of those drones to reach me and get so close my large guns probably wouldn't be able to hit it. I only say this because I never bothered actually shooting at drones while in combat before. I would just kill the ship controlling them unless I had a large smartbomb on. 1) Where did you read that drones were getting smaller sig? I didn't see that in either blog. Also, it needs to be a bonus FOR THE DOMINIX, not for all drones. It is the Dominix that is getting less fielded drones and thus hurt by the lower lock times. 2) The lower lock times are because it takes less time to target 5 drones than it does to target 15 drones. 3) That's exactly my point. No one tried to attack drones before because there were so many and it was a pain to try in combat with 15 different targets. With 5, everyone will be killing drones, thus showing exactly my point on that issue. Again, I think it's overall balanced, if the new classes of drones weren't put in, or if the Dominix's current +50% efficiency at drone usage wasnt changed to a +50% damage only with drones, relegating it to be only a drone damage carrier, and not a drone carrier that gets no use of the new drones.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Derran But can you actually HIT them easily while they are moving in orbit around you? My large guns couldn't but I kinda gave up after a few shots so I didn't try very long. Maybe that is why Tux isn't taking away the Dominix's large hybrid gun damage bonus so still has some non-drone punching power. Hit them with missiles? Sure, and they pop pretty quick too. Can also have your friend 20km away shoot them, or if you are a frigate with 5 buddies, you can all hit them. Not nerfing another aspect of the ship doesn't excuese nerfing one aspect when a nerf wasnt needed or intended. That'd be like taking away half of a Raven's missile hardpoints (assuming the Raven doesn't need a nerf, which is debatable) and saying "yeah, that's why I didn't take away your missile velocity bonus! :D You're welcome!". It just doesn't fly.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Derran But can you actually HIT them easily while they are moving in orbit around you? My large guns couldn't but I kinda gave up after a few shots so I didn't try very long. Maybe that is why Tux isn't taking away the Dominix's large hybrid gun damage bonus so still has some non-drone punching power. Hit them with missiles? Sure, and they pop pretty quick too. Can also have your friend 20km away shoot them, or if you are a frigate with 5 buddies, you can all hit them. Not nerfing another aspect of the ship doesn't excuese nerfing one aspect when a nerf wasnt needed or intended. That'd be like taking away half of a Raven's missile hardpoints (assuming the Raven doesn't need a nerf, which is debatable) and saying "yeah, that's why I didn't take away your missile velocity bonus! :D You're welcome!". It just doesn't fly.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:51:00 - [46] Quote: Dominix Before it could use 15 with Drones, Drone Interfacing and Gallente Battleship at level 5. After the changes with the same skills it will be able to use 5 drones but each drone will have the firepower of 3 drones before the changes. (20% damage per level on Drone Interfacing and 10% damage per level on Gallente Battleship). Actually as long as you have Drone Interfacing at level 5 then your damage output shouldn't change at all although the durability of your drones will. If you don't have drone interfacing at level 5 then it's a little bit of reduction in damage output. For example if you have Drone Interfacing at level 4 and Gallente Battleship at level 4 then you could now use 13 drones. After the changes you could use 5 but they would have the effective damage output of 12.6 The durability would still be, assuming 50% increase in drone hitpoints, 7.5 effective drones but it wouldn't be that unrealistic that these ships would also get drone hitpoint bonuses lets say 10% per level which means that with Gallente Battleship at level 5 the drones would have 2.25 times the hitpoint of the drones before the changes, that is combined hitpoints of 5 drones with Gallente Battleship level 5 would be the same as 11.25 drones before the changes. So, us typical Dominix semi-specialists (or medium/low SP full specialists), have Drones-5, Drone Interfacing-4, BS-4, and a Dominix. We get 12.6 drones of damage instead of 13. We get (1.51.4 = 2.1) 2.1xHPs for each of the 5 drones, for a total of 10.5* Drones worth of HPs in our fielded drones, instead of 13. (31.5 instead of 30 if you count the ones in the hold, which for PvP you shouldn't, and for PvE if you're losing drones, you better recall them and/or warp out). We get double hit by the locking issues (it's harder to lock 10 targets than 5, it's harder to lock 13-15 than 10). We get access to up to 5 new special drones, just like most others get the same, but we have to give up our current full compliment of 13 drones to use them, where others have to give up 5 to 10 (most non-drone specialists dont really train up drone interfacing, thus the 5). How is this not bad for the Dominix again?
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:51:00 - [47] Quote: Dominix Before it could use 15 with Drones, Drone Interfacing and Gallente Battleship at level 5. After the changes with the same skills it will be able to use 5 drones but each drone will have the firepower of 3 drones before the changes. (20% damage per level on Drone Interfacing and 10% damage per level on Gallente Battleship). Actually as long as you have Drone Interfacing at level 5 then your damage output shouldn't change at all although the durability of your drones will. If you don't have drone interfacing at level 5 then it's a little bit of reduction in damage output. For example if you have Drone Interfacing at level 4 and Gallente Battleship at level 4 then you could now use 13 drones. After the changes you could use 5 but they would have the effective damage output of 12.6 The durability would still be, assuming 50% increase in drone hitpoints, 7.5 effective drones but it wouldn't be that unrealistic that these ships would also get drone hitpoint bonuses lets say 10% per level which means that with Gallente Battleship at level 5 the drones would have 2.25 times the hitpoint of the drones before the changes, that is combined hitpoints of 5 drones with Gallente Battleship level 5 would be the same as 11.25 drones before the changes. So, us typical Dominix semi-specialists (or medium/low SP full specialists), have Drones-5, Drone Interfacing-4, BS-4, and a Dominix. We get 12.6 drones of damage instead of 13. We get (1.51.4 = 2.1) 2.1xHPs for each of the 5 drones, for a total of 10.5* Drones worth of HPs in our fielded drones, instead of 13. (31.5 instead of 30 if you count the ones in the hold, which for PvP you shouldn't, and for PvE if you're losing drones, you better recall them and/or warp out). We get double hit by the locking issues (it's harder to lock 10 targets than 5, it's harder to lock 13-15 than 10). We get access to up to 5 new special drones, just like most others get the same, but we have to give up our current full compliment of 13 drones to use them, where others have to give up 5 to 10 (most non-drone specialists dont really train up drone interfacing, thus the 5). How is this not bad for the Dominix again?
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 02:47:00 - [48] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 02:47:56 Originally by: Trelennen You will have new skills. Yes, others will have them too, but hey, you're a specialist, and thus will more train these new skills more likely than the turret/missile specialists, don't you think? And Tux has mentioned new skills to improve range/speed/damage/armor of the drones, that looks like a big boost potential for the drone specialists, as non drone specialist will probably not bother to train them much high, as they'll have more use to train turret/missile skills... Yes, those and the new drones will be good for people that choose to train drone skills and use new drones, but the point is WHAT ABOUT THE DOMINIX? Doesn't it get any bonus for these drones, since that is the point of the ship? Thats like having new EW modules that anyone can use, and are better than the existing ones, except the SCORPION DOESNT get a bonus on the new ones. Of if the new ones take up 3 med slots in a Scorpion, but 2 med slot for everyone else. Don't you think Scorpion fliers would (rightfully) complain? Or having new lasers that do something cool, and anyone can train, but take up 50% more cap when fired by an Armageddon or Apoc... don't you think Amarr people would (rightfully) complain?
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 02:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 02:47:56 Originally by: Trelennen You will have new skills. Yes, others will have them too, but hey, you're a specialist, and thus will more train these new skills more likely than the turret/missile specialists, don't you think? And Tux has mentioned new skills to improve range/speed/damage/armor of the drones, that looks like a big boost potential for the drone specialists, as non drone specialist will probably not bother to train them much high, as they'll have more use to train turret/missile skills... Yes, those and the new drones will be good for people that choose to train drone skills and use new drones, but the point is WHAT ABOUT THE DOMINIX? Doesn't it get any bonus for these drones, since that is the point of the ship? Thats like having new EW modules that anyone can use, and are better than the existing ones, except the SCORPION DOESNT get a bonus on the new ones. Of if the new ones take up 3 med slots in a Scorpion, but 2 med slot for everyone else. Don't you think Scorpion fliers would (rightfully) complain? Or having new lasers that do something cool, and anyone can train, but take up 50% more cap when fired by an Armageddon or Apoc... don't you think Amarr people would (rightfully) complain?
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 02:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Trelennen So, average raven pilot has Drones 5, Drone Interfacing 1 (no need for more). Now, instead of 6 drones, they have 3 which do the damage of 3.6... great. Same thing for every pilot of ships which usualy can't have 10 heavy drones btw... These aren't a large percentage of the ships total damage like it is for the Dominix. Also, DI1 to DI4 is only about 5 or 6 days of training. You'll still be down on damage a little bit, but Dominix pilots use this as their main source of damage, not a tiny extra boost. Besides, you can just use the new drones, and be as good with them as a Dominix pilot with DI5 and BS5 is, with no training at all. (sure you'll only have 3 drones instead of 5, making you a total of 60% as good, but thats still not too shabby considering it's not a drone ship who's primary role is drones, and those ships that can field 5 drones will be 100% as good as the drone dedicated ship, again, with no skills needed (other than Drones5) to do it... and whatever skill is needed for the new drone of course...).

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 02:55:00 - [51] Originally by: Trelennen So, average raven pilot has Drones 5, Drone Interfacing 1 (no need for more). Now, instead of 6 drones, they have 3 which do the damage of 3.6... great. Same thing for every pilot of ships which usualy can't have 10 heavy drones btw... These aren't a large percentage of the ships total damage like it is for the Dominix. Also, DI1 to DI4 is only about 5 or 6 days of training. You'll still be down on damage a little bit, but Dominix pilots use this as their main source of damage, not a tiny extra boost. Besides, you can just use the new drones, and be as good with them as a Dominix pilot with DI5 and BS5 is, with no training at all. (sure you'll only have 3 drones instead of 5, making you a total of 60% as good, but thats still not too shabby considering it's not a drone ship who's primary role is drones, and those ships that can field 5 drones will be 100% as good as the drone dedicated ship, again, with no skills needed (other than Drones5) to do it... and whatever skill is needed for the new drone of course...).
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 03:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Esrevatem Dlareme I really don't see any reason for a Dominix to get a bonus to EWAR drones at all. If it wants to use them, then it needs to be ready to deal damage via turrets. (considering if it's solo) Otherwise, it's either using them primarily to run away, or it's in a support role. I think turning it into an EWAR BS will overpower it given it's versatility as it is now. Many ppl complain that it'll be just effective as other BS's that can field 5 drones but those other BS's won't have backup drones at all, where the Domi has 2 sets. Having drones in your hangar doesn't give you more damage or more EW, or more webbing, or anything like that. Having them deployed does. If a Dominix having 5 EW drones deployed just like most other ships can needs to deal damage via guns, then it needs to be given the ability to do that just like those other ships have. Dominix has crappy grid because it gets to use lots of drones. If it's drones are the same number and strength as a Megathrons, then it needs TONS more grid (yay for lack of diversity?). You can't have it both ways, Dominix with same number and strength of fielded drones as everyone else AND way less grid than everyone else. About EW drones... have you seen the numbers on these? 5 of them are about equivalent to 1 or 2 EW modules. Making them 50% better for the Dominix, for a total of about 1.5 to 3 EW modules, seems a fair tradeoff for having way less grid than other Teir 1 BSs (other than Scorp, which gets other stuff to make it good which I wont go into). Thats like 2 extra EW module it gets over a Geddon, which has 10,500 grid (over 100% more) to make up for it, seems a fair trade to me. And these EW 'modules' can be destroyed, and have to travel to their target.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 03:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Esrevatem Dlareme I really don't see any reason for a Dominix to get a bonus to EWAR drones at all. If it wants to use them, then it needs to be ready to deal damage via turrets. (considering if it's solo) Otherwise, it's either using them primarily to run away, or it's in a support role. I think turning it into an EWAR BS will overpower it given it's versatility as it is now. Many ppl complain that it'll be just effective as other BS's that can field 5 drones but those other BS's won't have backup drones at all, where the Domi has 2 sets. Having drones in your hangar doesn't give you more damage or more EW, or more webbing, or anything like that. Having them deployed does. If a Dominix having 5 EW drones deployed just like most other ships can needs to deal damage via guns, then it needs to be given the ability to do that just like those other ships have. Dominix has crappy grid because it gets to use lots of drones. If it's drones are the same number and strength as a Megathrons, then it needs TONS more grid (yay for lack of diversity?). You can't have it both ways, Dominix with same number and strength of fielded drones as everyone else AND way less grid than everyone else. About EW drones... have you seen the numbers on these? 5 of them are about equivalent to 1 or 2 EW modules. Making them 50% better for the Dominix, for a total of about 1.5 to 3 EW modules, seems a fair tradeoff for having way less grid than other Teir 1 BSs (other than Scorp, which gets other stuff to make it good which I wont go into). Thats like 2 extra EW module it gets over a Geddon, which has 10,500 grid (over 100% more) to make up for it, seems a fair trade to me. And these EW 'modules' can be destroyed, and have to travel to their target.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 07:53:00 - [54] Originally by: jamesw Edited by: jamesw on 03/11/2005 04:00:37 I thought it had already been made clear, that despite having the same number of drones, the firepower and strength (of drones) is more for the dominix. Also, as most people know, fitting 6 large turrets is one of the Domi's many tricks, and is really no problem at all. 6 turrets + shield tank + damage mods + ecm drones. worth trying IMO. Then you've been deceived if that is clear to you, because it is untrue. Only damage drones have more 'strength', thus my entire complaint. Your little example of 6 turrets with ECM drones, most other ships can do much better, as a Dominix is just as good with ECM drones as any other ship that can field 5 drones, and they get way better other bonuses, like more damage, or tracking, or 8 guns instead of 6, or more cap, etc, etc, etc... they all get something, Dominix gets stronger drones, if you use ECM drones, you dont get stronger drones even though you're supposed to... thats the ENTIRE PROBLEM (sorry for shout ><).
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 07:53:00 - [55] Originally by: jamesw Edited by: jamesw on 03/11/2005 04:00:37 I thought it had already been made clear, that despite having the same number of drones, the firepower and strength (of drones) is more for the dominix. Also, as most people know, fitting 6 large turrets is one of the Domi's many tricks, and is really no problem at all. 6 turrets + shield tank + damage mods + ecm drones. worth trying IMO. Then you've been deceived if that is clear to you, because it is untrue. Only damage drones have more 'strength', thus my entire complaint. Your little example of 6 turrets with ECM drones, most other ships can do much better, as a Dominix is just as good with ECM drones as any other ship that can field 5 drones, and they get way better other bonuses, like more damage, or tracking, or 8 guns instead of 6, or more cap, etc, etc, etc... they all get something, Dominix gets stronger drones, if you use ECM drones, you dont get stronger drones even though you're supposed to... thats the ENTIRE PROBLEM (sorry for shout ><).
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 07:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Hugh Ruka In the 'old' system, if I can control a maximum of 5 heavy drones, than I do NOT NEED THE DRONE INTERFACING SKILL !!! But it becomes a neccessity now, as it compensates for the drone bay loss. Only if you use the damage drones. If you use the new 'other' drones, you are just as good with them as the best drone ship in the entire game, without training any more skills, and there is no skill to make the best drone ship in the entire game any better than you can be with them.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 07:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Hugh Ruka In the 'old' system, if I can control a maximum of 5 heavy drones, than I do NOT NEED THE DRONE INTERFACING SKILL !!! But it becomes a neccessity now, as it compensates for the drone bay loss. Only if you use the damage drones. If you use the new 'other' drones, you are just as good with them as the best drone ship in the entire game, without training any more skills, and there is no skill to make the best drone ship in the entire game any better than you can be with them.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 08:02:00 - [58] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 08:05:03 Originally by: von Torgo Add a new module "External Dronebay". This would be a high slot module and come in all four sizes: small, medium, large and extra large. Primary function of the module would be to give a static increase in drone bay size. It would have to be a percentage, else it'll be a boost to non-drone ships far more than drone ships. A module that triples the dronebay of an Amarr ship, but only gives +50% more to a Gallente one seems a bit 'off'. Additionally, part of this balance relies upon the fact that some ships cant carry enough to field a full compliement of 5. To maintain ballance if you had such a module, you'd have to allow all ships to field all the drones in their bay, or it'll be a boost only for ships that are currently restricted to less than 5 drones due to bay size. You'd be effectively giveing ships that can only fit 3 in hold not only a large bay, but also more drone total HPs, more drone damage when damage drones are used, more drone ECM when ECM drones are used, etc... while the Dominix not only doesn't get this (and should), it also wouldn't get any increase from your new module either.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 08:02:00 - [59] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 08:05:03 Originally by: von Torgo Add a new module "External Dronebay". This would be a high slot module and come in all four sizes: small, medium, large and extra large. Primary function of the module would be to give a static increase in drone bay size. It would have to be a percentage, else it'll be a boost to non-drone ships far more than drone ships. A module that triples the dronebay of an Amarr ship, but only gives +50% more to a Gallente one seems a bit 'off'. Additionally, part of this balance relies upon the fact that some ships cant carry enough to field a full compliement of 5. To maintain ballance if you had such a module, you'd have to allow all ships to field all the drones in their bay, or it'll be a boost only for ships that are currently restricted to less than 5 drones due to bay size. You'd be effectively giveing ships that can only fit 3 in hold not only a large bay, but also more drone total HPs, more drone damage when damage drones are used, more drone ECM when ECM drones are used, etc... while the Dominix not only doesn't get this (and should), it also wouldn't get any increase from your new module either.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 08:16:00 - [60] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 08:18:07 Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 08:15:52 Originally by: jamesw Tux had this to say. to me it does not say anything about dmg drones. Originally by: Tuxford You didn't read the dev blog at all did you. I said I would give those ships that get drone control bonuses a hitpoint bonus. Most likely 10% per level. It's still not as many hitpoint as it was but it's not that worse. And having fewer tougher drones has the added advantage of not being taken out with one smartbomb. I don't get your point. They get more HPs (still less than they have now, but more than other people will get, so still a nerf), but he still hasn't said there, or in either dev blog, that Dominix ECM drones get +10%/BS level to their ECM strength. Thus the only proper assumtion would be that they do not. (I just realized that by 'strength' you may have meant HPs, and not Strength as in efficacy... if you mean HPs, yes they do, if you mean strength of effect, no they do not)... EDIT: Though... in your statement you said 'firepower' was also increased, and this is only true of basic damage drones, and not the 'firepower' of ECM drones if you interpret 'firepower' losely as efficacy/strength/power. Quote: As to ECM drones being no more effective, i'll pay that, but that doesnt really change their usefullness - a Domi pilot will have at his discretion what drone type to use at the time of the fight. This is where pilot skill comes into play. While this is true to some degree, I think you're giving it far more weight than it's worth. You usually know exactly what you want to use when you undock, you launch them when you engage, and you don't have time to switch them out if they aren't working. Besides, most of the counterarguments for why the Dominix isn't 'too nerfed' assume that you fill your hold with all of the same time of drone, and have time to go through multiple waves of that drone in combat (and they ignore the flight time of the drones). You can't use that argument at the same time as arguing that they can pick what to launch, because you've already assumed what they have loaded. Quote: What drones to use is all up in the air at this point, but I think you will find that a Domi pilot is better off. I'm fairly certain they are not. Less HPs, less damage from their primary weapon, easier to target and kill them, reduction in 'overdamage-wastage' protection, and have to sacrifice more than anyone else to use the new drones yet get no bonus for it. Doesn't sound thrilling to me. Drone carriers are drone carriers, they need to be better with drones than non-drone carriers, that their entire point.

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 08:16:00 - [61] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 08:18:07 Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 08:15:52 Originally by: jamesw Tux had this to say. to me it does not say anything about dmg drones. Originally by: Tuxford You didn't read the dev blog at all did you. I said I would give those ships that get drone control bonuses a hitpoint bonus. Most likely 10% per level. It's still not as many hitpoint as it was but it's not that worse. And having fewer tougher drones has the added advantage of not being taken out with one smartbomb. I don't get your point. They get more HPs (still less than they have now, but more than other people will get, so still a nerf), but he still hasn't said there, or in either dev blog, that Dominix ECM drones get +10%/BS level to their ECM strength. Thus the only proper assumtion would be that they do not. (I just realized that by 'strength' you may have meant HPs, and not Strength as in efficacy... if you mean HPs, yes they do, if you mean strength of effect, no they do not)... EDIT: Though... in your statement you said 'firepower' was also increased, and this is only true of basic damage drones, and not the 'firepower' of ECM drones if you interpret 'firepower' losely as efficacy/strength/power. Quote: As to ECM drones being no more effective, i'll pay that, but that doesnt really change their usefullness - a Domi pilot will have at his discretion what drone type to use at the time of the fight. This is where pilot skill comes into play. While this is true to some degree, I think you're giving it far more weight than it's worth. You usually know exactly what you want to use when you undock, you launch them when you engage, and you don't have time to switch them out if they aren't working. Besides, most of the counterarguments for why the Dominix isn't 'too nerfed' assume that you fill your hold with all of the same time of drone, and have time to go through multiple waves of that drone in combat (and they ignore the flight time of the drones). You can't use that argument at the same time as arguing that they can pick what to launch, because you've already assumed what they have loaded. Quote: What drones to use is all up in the air at this point, but I think you will find that a Domi pilot is better off. I'm fairly certain they are not. Less HPs, less damage from their primary weapon, easier to target and kill them, reduction in 'overdamage-wastage' protection, and have to sacrifice more than anyone else to use the new drones yet get no bonus for it. Doesn't sound thrilling to me. Drone carriers are drone carriers, they need to be better with drones than non-drone carriers, that their entire point.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 20:31:00 - [62] Originally by: Malken maybe i missed it somewhere but will 5 mining drones pull in the same amount as 15 used to? or did that part get overlooked? They are making it the same as 15 for SOME drone carriers. They've implied that they wont do this for the Dominix or the Moros, and those ships will be reduced to 10 drones worth or mining.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 20:31:00 - [63] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 03/11/2005 20:41:27 Originally by: Malken maybe i missed it somewhere but will 5 mining drones pull in the same amount as 15 used to? or did that part get overlooked? They are making it the same as 15 for SOME drone carriers. They've implied that they wont do this for the Dominix or the Moros, and those ships will be reduced to 10 drones worth or mining.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.03 20:40:00 - [64] Originally by: Skulmar i havnt read the all the posts (its simply too much) so if this question has already been answered plz give me a link: did anyone think about reducing the signature radius of drones as a drone controlle bonus of the ishtar, domi..(or even for all drones) instead of or in conjunction with increasing the hp? it would increase targeting time, make them tougher and smart bombs would also be still usefull, so it would be more similar to the current system. with the hp increasing system SB will get quite useless or at least far less effective then now. I believe I suggested it and it was summarilly ignored.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.03 20:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Skulmar i havnt read the all the posts (its simply too much) so if this question has already been answered plz give me a link: did anyone think about reducing the signature radius of drones as a drone controlle bonus of the ishtar, domi..(or even for all drones) instead of or in conjunction with increasing the hp? it would increase targeting time, make them tougher and smart bombs would also be still usefull, so it would be more similar to the current system. with the hp increasing system SB will get quite useless or at least far less effective then now. I believe I suggested it and it was summarilly ignored.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 03:46:00 - [66] Originally by: Paradox Eve in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect Incorrect. Quote: , you are gaining a great deal of versatility by having drones in your bay for any possible situation you encounter. Any situation? You seem to be suggesting we'll be able to fit a full set of 5 drones of all the different types, while ignoring the fact that we need a full set of 15 damage drones in order to keep our drones HPs the same (and lock times still less thus more frail, and travel times still longer thus less effective). If we need all 15 to be standard drones just to be ALMOST where we are now, then where are we supposed to get room for another 25 drones to be able to have drones for "any possible situation"? Also, I don't think it's as usefull as you make it out to be. The drones you want to use will mostly depend on your ship setup, and this is determined before you undock. Quote: This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. 50% is small?!? What in the hell do you consider large then?? Quote: Verstility: learn it and respect it, and then you can come back and post again. Actually, (though I know what versatility means, and how to spell it) I can post wether I know what it means or not, and wether or not I agree with you about how usefull it is in this situation or not, thanks. Quote: 2) Instead of having two full waves of drones in your bay, you will have have three full waves of drones, or two full waves plus extra E-WAR drones. This is very much a boost. [See above, for versatility.] I'll take the 2 waves and the +50% bonus to efficacy that we currently have, thanks. Quote: 4) Any other ship that uses these drones will have to reduce thier dmg output to do so, just like the Domi. The dmg will be reduced slightly less than if it were a Domi, but see "versatility" above. Not just like the Domi, far far less than the Domi, see the 50% above.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 03:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Paradox Eve in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect Incorrect. Quote: , you are gaining a great deal of versatility by having drones in your bay for any possible situation you encounter. Any situation? You seem to be suggesting we'll be able to fit a full set of 5 drones of all the different types, while ignoring the fact that we need a full set of 15 damage drones in order to keep our drones HPs the same (and lock times still less thus more frail, and travel times still longer thus less effective). If we need all 15 to be standard drones just to be ALMOST where we are now, then where are we supposed to get room for another 25 drones to be able to have drones for "any possible situation"? Also, I don't think it's as usefull as you make it out to be. The drones you want to use will mostly depend on your ship setup, and this is determined before you undock. Quote: This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. 50% is small?!? What in the hell do you consider large then?? Quote: Verstility: learn it and respect it, and then you can come back and post again. Actually, (though I know what versatility means, and how to spell it) I can post wether I know what it means or not, and wether or not I agree with you about how usefull it is in this situation or not, thanks. Quote: 2) Instead of having two full waves of drones in your bay, you will have have three full waves of drones, or two full waves plus extra E-WAR drones. This is very much a boost. [See above, for versatility.] I'll take the 2 waves and the +50% bonus to efficacy that we currently have, thanks. Quote: 4) Any other ship that uses these drones will have to reduce thier dmg output to do so, just like the Domi. The dmg will be reduced slightly less than if it were a Domi, but see "versatility" above. Not just like the Domi, far far less than the Domi, see the 50% above.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 05:33:00 - [68] Originally by: Paradox Eve False. You loose no dmg with 5 (new) drones vs 15 (old) drones. Uhh, you said "in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect" which is incorrect, I don't have DI5, I do lose damage (it is a fairly small amount, but it does exist), so your first statement was false, and your statement that my evaluation of your statement was false is also false. copies childish eyeroll Quote: No, and you wouldn't really need to do that either. Point was, you can fill your hold with drones set for different situations: Some as "frig poppers", some as jammers/disrupters, some as dmg dealers, ect. You're still either ignoring (or conveniently not mentioning) that we need a full set of standard drones, or they have effectively become far more frail. It's either one or the other, we simply cannot load 15 standard drones and 20 other drones at the same time. That's not how it works. If you assume someone fills bay with 'other' drones, then you should be also mentioning the severe nerf to drone survivability, which you are conveniently not mentioning in the analysis. Quote: Added versatility which will compliment your setup. Even better! Right, the same versatility that everyone else has, as you know what your setup is when you undock, and what will compliment it. The Domi gets a little more versatility in feild, but at a pretty damn hefty cost that most would never pay. Quote: It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes. The amount you lose more is 50%, the amount damage drones do more is 50%, so 50% is small in comparison to 50%? O.o I'd say that's equal in comparison, but hell, what do I know, I think 12.6 is less than 13, and 11.25 is less than 15 too, so clearly I can't do math.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 05:33:00 - [69] Originally by: Paradox Eve False. You loose no dmg with 5 (new) drones vs 15 (old) drones. Uhh, you said "in addition to loosing no dmg from your drones ect" which is incorrect, I don't have DI5, I do lose damage (it is a fairly small amount, but it does exist), so your first statement was false, and your statement that my evaluation of your statement was false is also false. copies childish eyeroll Quote: No, and you wouldn't really need to do that either. Point was, you can fill your hold with drones set for different situations: Some as "frig poppers", some as jammers/disrupters, some as dmg dealers, ect. You're still either ignoring (or conveniently not mentioning) that we need a full set of standard drones, or they have effectively become far more frail. It's either one or the other, we simply cannot load 15 standard drones and 20 other drones at the same time. That's not how it works. If you assume someone fills bay with 'other' drones, then you should be also mentioning the severe nerf to drone survivability, which you are conveniently not mentioning in the analysis. Quote: Added versatility which will compliment your setup. Even better! Right, the same versatility that everyone else has, as you know what your setup is when you undock, and what will compliment it. The Domi gets a little more versatility in feild, but at a pretty damn hefty cost that most would never pay. Quote: It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes. The amount you lose more is 50%, the amount damage drones do more is 50%, so 50% is small in comparison to 50%? O.o I'd say that's equal in comparison, but hell, what do I know, I think 12.6 is less than 13, and 11.25 is less than 15 too, so clearly I can't do math.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 05:38:00 - [70] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn Quote: This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. 50% is small?!? What in the hell do you consider large then?? where does it say you lose 50% in damage? last I saw, damage was the same. Assuming Drones-5, DI-5... If a Megathron uses a Webbing drone, they lose X amount of DPS. If a Dominix uses a Webbing drone, they lose *1.5 X** amount of DPS, where X = (2Current Drone DPS). That is my entire complaint, which Tux still hasn't even mentioned he knows the issue exists. (1.5X) is 50% more than (X) They dont SAY you lose 50% more damage using the new drones, because people would see that and complain about it being wrong. It is a hidden attribute of the workings of the system that you have to work out on your own to see.

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 05:38:00 - [71] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn Quote: This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. 50% is small?!? What in the hell do you consider large then?? where does it say you lose 50% in damage? last I saw, damage was the same. Assuming Drones-5, DI-5... If a Megathron uses a Webbing drone, they lose X amount of DPS. If a Dominix uses a Webbing drone, they lose *1.5 X** amount of DPS, where X = (2Current Drone DPS). That is my entire complaint, which Tux still hasn't even mentioned he knows the issue exists. (1.5X) is 50% more than (X) They dont SAY you lose 50% more damage using the new drones, because people would see that and complain about it being wrong. It is a hidden attribute of the workings of the system that you have to work out on your own to see.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 07:27:00 - [72] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 04/11/2005 07:27:35 Originally by: jamesw So what you are saying is that, if I launch non damaging drones, I do less damage? well... duhh... nobody is making you use web drones - you have 5 midslots for a reason, you know? If you decide to specialise in using drones offensively, then use offensive drones. I can't see a problem there. No, what I'm saying is... If Joe Blow (with the same skills as me) uses web drones, he does less damage, but if I use Web drones, I do more less damage (if ya follow that). This isn't due to me specializing in using drones offencively, it's because I fly a Dominix. is gonna smash something if he has to explain this again
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 07:27:00 - [73] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 04/11/2005 07:27:35 Originally by: jamesw So what you are saying is that, if I launch non damaging drones, I do less damage? well... duhh... nobody is making you use web drones - you have 5 midslots for a reason, you know? If you decide to specialise in using drones offensively, then use offensive drones. I can't see a problem there. No, what I'm saying is... If Joe Blow (with the same skills as me) uses web drones, he does less damage, but if I use Web drones, I do more less damage (if ya follow that). This isn't due to me specializing in using drones offencively, it's because I fly a Dominix. is gonna smash something if he has to explain this again
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:24:00 - [74] Originally by: Paradox Eve Not with a Dominix you dont. So your statement remains false, no matter how much you want it to be true. Try again. Originally by: DevBlog But what if that dominix pilot only had Gallente Battleship skill at level 4 and drone interfacing at level 4. Now that pilot could use 13 drones but after these changes he could use 5 but they would give the equivilant of 12.6 drones. Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. Quote: Yeah, you can do math. But you can't read. Here is what I said: "It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes." Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I don't see the point of that, of course they are the same, I'll grant that I didn't clearly read your new statement and realize you were changing what you were comparing and saying was small (something that was 50% different, by no means 'small') to a new comparison you made up which is actually 0. I said the original difference was 50%, it was. I think I know what you mean (though it's not what you said), that the percentage difference between a Dominix's drone damage output when using a webber drone is relatively small compared to the difference between a non-Dominixs drone damage output when using a webber drone. But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. If we reduced a Tristans missile damage in half, and reduced a Ravens missile damage in half, then argued that it was fine because they both are losing 50% of their missile damage, anyone would clearly see the logical flaw involved here (in case you don't here it is: reducing by 20% a ships primary weapon is not the same as reducing by 20% a different ships tertiary weapon). Quote: Throwing this "50%" number around is just a number game on your part. I can do it too, look: The Domi looses the exact same percentage, 20%, of it's drone dmg when it uses a new drone vs an 'old' drone compared to another ship using a new drone. It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. This "small dmg loss over another pilot" you speak of, is 50% of 2 current standard drones of damage (with maxed skills). You lose 50% more damage, thus the "dmg loss over another pilot" is 50%, that's just how it is. I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out), as you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I'd certainly trade the +50% dronebay to keep my +50% drone efficacy over others, and if others would as well, then this implies that my opinion of the tradeoff probably 'holds more water' if you will. K
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:24:00 - [75] Originally by: Paradox Eve Not with a Dominix you dont. So your statement remains false, no matter how much you want it to be true. Try again. Originally by: DevBlog But what if that dominix pilot only had Gallente Battleship skill at level 4 and drone interfacing at level 4. Now that pilot could use 13 drones but after these changes he could use 5 but they would give the equivilant of 12.6 drones. Either you are right, or the dev that wrote the thing is right. I'm going with the latter (and my own calcuations which confirm that 51.81.4=12.6, which is less than 13). It's not a big change, but what you said is still wrong. Quote: Yeah, you can do math. But you can't read. Here is what I said: "It's realtively small, compared to the overall difference you do with all your drones vs what they do with all thier drones. Yes." Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. I was going with your original relativity of small. Your new one you are comparing the 50% increase in damage loss of a Dominix pilot over a non-Dominx pilot when using a webber drone, to the difference between Dominix drone max damage vs non-Dominix max drone damage? I don't see the point of that, of course they are the same, I'll grant that I didn't clearly read your new statement and realize you were changing what you were comparing and saying was small (something that was 50% different, by no means 'small') to a new comparison you made up which is actually 0. I said the original difference was 50%, it was. I think I know what you mean (though it's not what you said), that the percentage difference between a Dominix's drone damage output when using a webber drone is relatively small compared to the difference between a non-Dominixs drone damage output when using a webber drone. But this comparison is pointless as it shows nothing of import, they both lose 20%, the difference in these percentages is 0, the difference in actuall damage loss, is 50%. If we reduced a Tristans missile damage in half, and reduced a Ravens missile damage in half, then argued that it was fine because they both are losing 50% of their missile damage, anyone would clearly see the logical flaw involved here (in case you don't here it is: reducing by 20% a ships primary weapon is not the same as reducing by 20% a different ships tertiary weapon). Quote: Throwing this "50%" number around is just a number game on your part. I can do it too, look: The Domi looses the exact same percentage, 20%, of it's drone dmg when it uses a new drone vs an 'old' drone compared to another ship using a new drone. It's not a number game, IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN DAMAGE YOU ORIGINALLY WERE TALKING ABOUT. You said it was small, I cited the EXACT number. In case you still don't remember what you said that lead me to state 50%, here it is again... Originally by: Paradox Eve This very much offsets the relatively small dmg loss over another pilot when you use one of the new drones as opposed to a traditional drone. This "small dmg loss over another pilot" you speak of, is 50% of 2 current standard drones of damage (with maxed skills). You lose 50% more damage, thus the "dmg loss over another pilot" is 50%, that's just how it is. I've come to the conclusion that you're arguing to not be wrong (even though you were/are in the cases pointed out), as you've acknowleged that Dominix pilots lose more when using the new drones, and just think the new versatility offsets this. I explained why (with good reasoning and explanations IMO) about 3 posts back why I disagree with this, so it's a matter of opinion. I'd certainly trade the +50% dronebay to keep my +50% drone efficacy over others, and if others would as well, then this implies that my opinion of the tradeoff probably 'holds more water' if you will. K
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:28:00 - [76] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn No, what I'm saying is... If Joe Blow (with the same skills as me) uses web drones, he does less damage, but if I use Web drones, I do more less damage (if ya follow that). This isn't due to me specializing in using drones offencively, it's because I fly a Dominix. *is gonna smash something if he has to explain this again* So... let me get this straight.... You get specific bonuses for damage, and you would knowingly choose to give it up for Webbing. Thats fair enough, you are more than entitled to do so - its your ship, and your setup. No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 09:28:00 - [77] Originally by: jamesw Originally by: Kaell Meynn No, what I'm saying is... If Joe Blow (with the same skills as me) uses web drones, he does less damage, but if I use Web drones, I do more less damage (if ya follow that). This isn't due to me specializing in using drones offencively, it's because I fly a Dominix. *is gonna smash something if he has to explain this again* So... let me get this straight.... You get specific bonuses for damage, and you would knowingly choose to give it up for Webbing. Thats fair enough, you are more than entitled to do so - its your ship, and your setup. No. I want to keep the +50% efficacy of drones that the Dominix currently has. smashes something as he had to explain it again
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:25:00 - [78] Originally by: jamesw The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. Yes, but the Dominix has to give up more to use them than anyone else. They currently get 15 drones, they have to give up 3 to use a new drone, everyone else has to give up 1-2. smashes more stuff as he had to explain it again smashes stuff all over Here is an explanation by analogy.... Say they put a new module in game, it takes up a high slot, and 2 missile hardpoints, and warp scrambles someone from 100km. But if you happen to fly a Raven, it takes up 3 missile hardpoints instead of 2. Don't you think Raven pilots would (rightfully) complain?
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:25:00 - [79] Originally by: jamesw The new drones are just that. New. Can't compare them to anything in the old system because they do not exist in any way, shape, or form in it. Yes, but the Dominix has to give up more to use them than anyone else. They currently get 15 drones, they have to give up 3 to use a new drone, everyone else has to give up 1-2. smashes more stuff as he had to explain it again smashes stuff all over Here is an explanation by analogy.... Say they put a new module in game, it takes up a high slot, and 2 missile hardpoints, and warp scrambles someone from 100km. But if you happen to fly a Raven, it takes up 3 missile hardpoints instead of 2. Don't you think Raven pilots would (rightfully) complain?
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.04 20:26:00 - [80] Originally by: Nekhad Jormuzzar Give up Kaell. NEVAH SURRENDAH!! ;P Originally by: Magunus Originally by: MortiSeraphim only pity is the devs dont listen to players' complaints or feedback on changes even after its widespread unpopularity...its like they dont care they have paying customers. ...and someone commented before, yet another boost for the dev's lovechild: the interceptor. You can honestly say that after they changed the damage bonus from thermal to all types? You think they're not listening? Just because they're forced into making a somewhat unpopular change doesn't mean they're not listening. They also have to pay attention to all the people out there that don't realize they're directly affected by this change because they don't associate drones with lag. Indeed, they are clearly listening, which is cool. But they havn't said anything about the other main issue, or even recognized it exists. All I wan't is for TUX to come on and say "YEAH, I KNOW THE DOMI GETS SHAFTED HERE, I JUST DONT CARE". Then I'll be happy, well not happy, but content.

Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.04 20:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Nekhad Jormuzzar Give up Kaell. NEVAH SURRENDAH!! ;P Originally by: Magunus Originally by: MortiSeraphim only pity is the devs dont listen to players' complaints or feedback on changes even after its widespread unpopularity...its like they dont care they have paying customers. ...and someone commented before, yet another boost for the dev's lovechild: the interceptor. You can honestly say that after they changed the damage bonus from thermal to all types? You think they're not listening? Just because they're forced into making a somewhat unpopular change doesn't mean they're not listening. They also have to pay attention to all the people out there that don't realize they're directly affected by this change because they don't associate drones with lag. Indeed, they are clearly listening, which is cool. But they havn't said anything about the other main issue, or even recognized it exists. All I wan't is for TUX to come on and say "YEAH, I KNOW THE DOMI GETS SHAFTED HERE, I JUST DONT CARE". Then I'll be happy, well not happy, but content.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.05 06:36:00 - [82] Originally by: jamesw My response was directed at those who say that drone carriers are being "nerfed" because they don't get specific boosts on the new types of drone. They arent being nerfed, and they shouldnt get those boosts, for the reasons in my post above. You are right, they aren't being nerfed (in that respect, they are getting some small nerfs here and there which sucks, but we generally havn't complained too much about). HOWEVER... all the other ships are getting a boost that the Dominix isn't getting, as they have to stick with their current drones to maintain their current primary weapon. Here's another analogy to what's happening... say they made a new module that does something really cool, like has a chance to 100% web someone and warp scram them from 50km out. It takes up 2 high slots. But if you fit it on a Raven, it takes 3 high slots. Of course the Raven can just choose to not fit the module, but that doesn't mean it's fair. The people who don't give up their primary weapon (or as much of it) are getting more of a boost than the Raven is, thus it is an indirect nerf to the Raven by giving everyone OTHER THAN the Raven a bigger boost than the Raven gets. Now do you follow? As for the extra diversity... well, say this new module can be onlined from cargohold in space. The Raven still isn't going to use it as much as others do simply because they give up more than others do to use it.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.05 06:36:00 - [83] Originally by: jamesw My response was directed at those who say that drone carriers are being "nerfed" because they don't get specific boosts on the new types of drone. They arent being nerfed, and they shouldnt get those boosts, for the reasons in my post above. You are right, they aren't being nerfed (in that respect, they are getting some small nerfs here and there which sucks, but we generally havn't complained too much about). HOWEVER... all the other ships are getting a boost that the Dominix isn't getting, as they have to stick with their current drones to maintain their current primary weapon. Here's another analogy to what's happening... say they made a new module that does something really cool, like has a chance to 100% web someone and warp scram them from 50km out. It takes up 2 high slots. But if you fit it on a Raven, it takes 3 high slots. Of course the Raven can just choose to not fit the module, but that doesn't mean it's fair. The people who don't give up their primary weapon (or as much of it) are getting more of a boost than the Raven is, thus it is an indirect nerf to the Raven by giving everyone OTHER THAN the Raven a bigger boost than the Raven gets. Now do you follow? As for the extra diversity... well, say this new module can be onlined from cargohold in space. The Raven still isn't going to use it as much as others do simply because they give up more than others do to use it.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.05 07:32:00 - [84] Originally by: jamesw I completely follow what you are saying. I simply disagree with you. I dont see it as a nerf, and I have given my reasons as to why. That's fine to disagree, I can respect that, I only explain again because you state it as fact, and not opinion, that "They arent being nerfed". When stated as fact, it can only mean you don't understand the opposing viewpoint, so I explain. Quote: The Drone carrier has the boost that you speak of in another form - it has a load of highslots to do whatever it wants with. This is being made an even bigger boost because these changes make damage drones into a better primary weapon. After this change, carrier pilots will have less need to fit guns, and can fit completely different classes of module in their highs to better effect. Okay, now I have no idea WTH you are talking about... How are drones being made into a better primary weapon (especially one so much better that they have significantly less need to fit GUNS on their ship???)? They do the same (or less) damage as before O.o.
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.05 07:32:00 - [85] Originally by: jamesw I completely follow what you are saying. I simply disagree with you. I dont see it as a nerf, and I have given my reasons as to why. That's fine to disagree, I can respect that, I only explain again because you state it as fact, and not opinion, that "They arent being nerfed". When stated as fact, it can only mean you don't understand the opposing viewpoint, so I explain. Quote: The Drone carrier has the boost that you speak of in another form - it has a load of highslots to do whatever it wants with. This is being made an even bigger boost because these changes make damage drones into a better primary weapon. After this change, carrier pilots will have less need to fit guns, and can fit completely different classes of module in their highs to better effect. Okay, now I have no idea WTH you are talking about... How are drones being made into a better primary weapon (especially one so much better that they have significantly less need to fit GUNS on their ship???)? They do the same (or less) damage as before O.o.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.05 08:13:00 - [86] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 05/11/2005 08:14:25 Originally by: jamesw They are getting more hitpoints per drone, meaning more survivability vs their number 1 nemesis, Mr. Large Smartbomb. Also, Drone carriers are getting more drones, meaning longer fights and more damage type choice and stuff. New and more damaging selections to choose (sentries). Drone upgrade modules to fit on your ship. I understand that there are less drones to kill off if you manually target them, but really I dont see that as a problem. Its a lot less challenging to get around than a large smartbomb is at present. I've never lost a drone to an enemy smartbomb (a couple while screwing around with corpmates). I'm not getting more damage, I'm getting less (12.6 vs 13). I get small fraction more HPs (5%), 31.5 for all drones in hold+field instead of 30, if you count all drones in hold (which is assuming I don't use any of this 'versatility bonus' and thus if you are arguing that HPs of my drones stays the same, you cannot also use the versatility argument), but a good deal less (20%) if you count those in field (10.5 drones worth of hitpoints in field instead of 13). So I still don't see where this idea that they're being made so much better they have a significant reduction in need for guns comes from. They are generally staying the same, or getting worse, thus would have a greater need to fit a standard BS setup of guns (which they can't very well). HP = (50% bonus assuming its a flat 50% and not based on DI level in which case I lose more, + 40% Domi bonus)
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.05 08:13:00 - [87] Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 05/11/2005 08:14:25 Originally by: jamesw They are getting more hitpoints per drone, meaning more survivability vs their number 1 nemesis, Mr. Large Smartbomb. Also, Drone carriers are getting more drones, meaning longer fights and more damage type choice and stuff. New and more damaging selections to choose (sentries). Drone upgrade modules to fit on your ship. I understand that there are less drones to kill off if you manually target them, but really I dont see that as a problem. Its a lot less challenging to get around than a large smartbomb is at present. I've never lost a drone to an enemy smartbomb (a couple while screwing around with corpmates). I'm not getting more damage, I'm getting less (12.6 vs 13). I get small fraction more HPs (5%), 31.5 for all drones in hold+field instead of 30, if you count all drones in hold (which is assuming I don't use any of this 'versatility bonus' and thus if you are arguing that HPs of my drones stays the same, you cannot also use the versatility argument), but a good deal less (20%) if you count those in field (10.5 drones worth of hitpoints in field instead of 13). So I still don't see where this idea that they're being made so much better they have a significant reduction in need for guns comes from. They are generally staying the same, or getting worse, thus would have a greater need to fit a standard BS setup of guns (which they can't very well). HP = (50% bonus assuming its a flat 50% and not based on DI level in which case I lose more, + 40% Domi bonus)
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.09 07:00:00 - [88] Now imagine that Moros deploying ECM drones....
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.11.09 07:00:00 - [89] Now imagine that Moros deploying ECM drones....

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